Peace & Love

thanks for the clarification. i thought it may have been a genuine oversight so decided to explain the verses your husband mentioned.

science and islam don’t face the same clash that christianity and science did in the past. people sometimes view islam in the same light and think that a belief in god hinders scientific progress. so thought it’d be worth mentioning there is no such friction in Islam.

anyway, more important things are the way we can move forward as a people. will no doubt chat on that at some point. take care until then.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread.

I didn’t write the original post in this, rather my husband, Majutsu, did. He does recognize the problems with translation. For a little while he was trying to learn Arabic so he could read the original, but since it seems that travel to most Arabic-speaking countries is too dangerous for Americans these days (and it’s hard to learn a language without speaking it), he’s given up.

I do think the Koran has at least a little more valid provenance than the Bible (which has been mistranslated and maliciously edited so many times as to be downright toxic in places), but I still see it as a fiction, myself, I have to confess. But if it’s got truth in it for you, I think that’s a good thing, esp. since you seem to read it and let it influence you in a very positive way.

must say, don’t often come across people who aren’t fiction readers. i can appreciate most of what you say regarding reading fiction, i can’t get the ‘this isn’t real or possible’ notion out of my head and very quickly lose interest as a result.

having said that, I am a Muslim and feel it necessary to point out some flaws in your arguments stating the Quran (Koran) is fiction. Honest poet you said in one of our previous conversations that you believed Mohammed was a poet, so i find your interpretation of the koran a bit bizarre?

the Quran was revealed in FusHa Arabic (classical arabic) at a time when poetry was very big in Mecca. this is historical fact, not made up myths. The language of the Quran is also poetic - another fact not myth. (if you don’t believe it is from god, that’s different, but the physical verses are poetic). To understand the Quran, one can’t simply read a translation and interpret in any way we like. Whilst Islam doesn’t encourage reliance on scholars, this has become a sad reality of our present time, as religious education is either prevented, shunned or separated from scienctific or modern education. it is therefore not encouraged and we end up relying on scholars to tell us the meanings.

Either way, a common mistake made by non-Muslims, they pick up the quran and read a translation and conclude what they think they understand. As a poet, i’m sure you’ll appreciate that translation into another language can kill the essence of the meaning. The harder part is understanding the context in which the verse was revealed. this is very important - as people in the west often pull out verses relating to jews, or women and don’t understand the context and misinterpret its meaning.

i’ll use some of the verses in your example to explain. you said that the koran states the earth has eleven planets (12:4). THis is the translation:
(Remember) when Yusuf said to his father: “O my father! Verily, I saw (in a dream) eleven stars and the sun and the moon - I saw them prostrating themselves to me.”

Allah says, `Mention to your people, O Muhammad, among the stories that you narrate to them, the story of Yusuf.’ Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) mentioned his dream to his father, Prophet Ya`qub (Jacob), son of Prophet Ishaq (Isaac), son of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), peace be upon them all. `Abdullah bin `Abbas stated that the dreams of Prophets are revelations from Allah. Scholars of Tafsir explained that in Yusuf’s dream the eleven stars represent his brothers, who were eleven, and the sun and the moon represent his father and mother. This explanation was collected from Ibn `Abbas, Ad-Dahhak, Qatadah, Sufyan Ath-Thawri and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam. Yusuf’s vision became a reality forty years later, or as some say, eighty years, when Yusuf raised his parents to the throne while his brothers were before him,

you then state:

The sun does not move, the earth is not flat, and the sun does not go to bed in a muddy spring. (18:86, 90)

translation:
(Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun,) means, he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun’s setting, which is the west of the earth. As for the idea of his reaching the place in the sky where the sun sets, this is something impossible, and the tales told by storytellers that he traveled so far to the west that the sun set behind him are not true at all. Most of these stories come from the myths of the People of the Book and the fabrications and lies of their heretics.
(Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun,)
means, he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun’s setting, which is the west of the earth. As for the idea of his reaching the place in the sky where the sun sets, this is something impossible, and the tales told by storytellers that he traveled so far to the west that the sun set behind him are not true at all. Most of these stories come from the myths of the People of the Book and the fabrications and lies of their heretics.

then you state:

The earth is not still, but rotates on its axis.(27:61)

Is not He Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water) Is there any ilah (god) with Allah Nay, but most of them know not!) Allah says (Is not He Who has made the earth as a fixed abode,) meaning, stable and stationary, so that it does not move or convulse, because if it were to do so, it would not be a good place for people to live on. But by His grace and mercy, He has made it smooth and calm, and it is not shaken or moved. This is like the Ayah (Allah, Who has made for you the earth as a dwelling place and the sky as a canopy) (40:64).
(and has placed rivers in its midst,) means, He has placed rivers which are fresh and sweet, cutting through the earth, and He has made them of different types, large rivers, small rivers and some in between. He has caused them to flow in all directions, east, west, south, north, according to the needs of mankind in different areas and regions, as He has created them throughout the world and sends them their provision according to their needs.(and has placed firm mountains therein, ) means, high mountains which stabilize the earth and make it steadfast, so that it does not shake.
(and has set a barrier between the two seas) means, He has placed a barrier between the fresh water and the salt water, to prevent them from mixing lest they corrupt one another. Divine wisdom dictates that each of them should stay as it is meant to be. The sweet water is that which flows in rivers among mankind, and it is meant to be fresh and palatable so that it may be used to water animals and plants and fruits. The salt water is that which surrounds the continents on all sides, and its water is meant to be salty and undrinkable lest the air be corrupted by its smell, as Allah says:
(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter; and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.) (25:53) Allah says:
(Is there any god with Allah) meaning, any god who could do this, or who deserves to be worshipped Both meanings are indicated by the context.
(Nay, but most of them know not!) means, in that they worship others than Allah

Finally, you state:

The moon is not its own light, but reflects light of the sun. (71:16)

translation:
(And has made the moon a light therein, and made sun a lamp?)
this is one of the ayahs inviting man to think about creation amongst many.

Again, the Koran is a fiction. The Koran is just more stupid, made-up stories by a backward, pre-scientific people.

I’d still challenge you on this one. If Mohammed wrote it, why did he make all the rules obligatory upon himself? He could have easily exempt himself from the rules?

the concept of equality in Islam is actually quite unique - everyone is equal in the eyes of the creator and hence in Islam. no one is above the law - even the prophet had to pray, fast, pay the zakat, perform the pilgrimage, treat women with respect, lower his gaze etc. there are very few rules that were specific to him, some making things harder for him - for examplle there is an optional prayer (late night prayer) that is optional upon the Muslims but was obligatory upon the prophet. but anyhow, i’m not trying to convince you the prophet was a messenger. the point is to let you know that you’ve gravely misunderstood these verses.

the concept of after life was one of the concepts in islam that the non-muslim arabs at the time of Mohammed couldn’t grasp. they obviously had the prophet before their eyes so couldn’t deny his existence as some can confidently now. you’re not new. this life is a test, we do need rules to live, i’d rather submit to rules of the creator where everyone is equally accountable (with more responsibility comes greater accountability) rather than submit to the laws of a human being or group of human beings.

I don’t blame you for concluding that the Quran is fiction. This discussion isn’t encouraged around us and people are quick to pick up the quran and translate and interpret in anyway they like. it’s frustrating as a Muslim to not be given a voice. Muslim voices are suppressed in Muslim countries more than anywhere else - perhaps because if they weren’t, many would agree with Islam and that may lead to a shift in the balance of power. this can possibly be viewed as a conspiracy theory - but i do believe there are some who genuinely don’t know, but there are also those with malicious intent.

hope this makes sense!

ultimately, not a progressive debate either way.

hopefully we can change that trend in our blogs.

honest debate

I’m glad Islam answers the questions you have. It’s especially refreshing to hear from a Muslim who respects my right not to embrace it. Unfortunately, many of the Muslims I’ve seen online have been of the “Islam is going to take over the world, get used to it” variety, who aren’t doing much to ameliorate the anti-Islamic sentiment already rampant.